PA Jeeps
The Garage => Technical Advice and Questions => Topic started by: etaucher on October 13, 2008, 09:30:09 pm
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Im looking to upgrade the D-35 on my Cherokee to a better one. I have 31's on my Cherokee, and I have always had a little bump in the back (more like the back is dogging out the faster I go down the road) and Im getting tired of it. I was told by a few friends that the D-35 is NO good for Jeeps with 31's or bigger. Due to the weight. So Im looking to upgrade the back Axle, but would I need to replace the front one also? Im not sure what my front axle is.
But I was wondering what to replace my axles with. Seeing as how this is still my first Jeep, and Im still learning.
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I have seen a 35 take a good bit of abuse. With that being said I would recommend a 8 1/4 from another XJ. If you get the same gear ratio as your front you don't have to do anything to the front (Dana 30)
Ted
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Im still new at the Jeep thing, what Axle is the 8 1/4? And what gears do the the D-35's have?
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8 1/4 is for hauling in a stock xj so look for one with a hitch ur best bet and as for gears they range far out
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My Jeep has a hitch on it, but It was an after market one, should I look for one with a STOCK hitch? And I understand gears vary, but how would I no which gears are best for my Jeep? And how can I tell which gears my D-35 has?
*EDIT*
Found out how to check my gears, http://www.pajeeps.org/forum/index.php?topic=1445.new#new now, how would I no which are best for mine? I use it as a DD, and some times as an off roader.
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Up to 4:10 gears makes for quality daily driving.
The Dana 35 can take abuse, but all I've ever seen them do is "implode" on the trail. They are weak and IMO "JUNK".
Move forward and swap that thing out, you'll be and feel so much better.
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Thats what Im looking to do, but I want to no what to swap it with. What would be the cheapest and easiest swap for me to do. I do not have access to a welder or torch. Only grinders and air tools.
People on another Jeep Forum I belong to, are telling me to go with the late model D-44 or the 97+ 8.25 seeing as how they are bolt ins.
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im running a 8 1/4 with 3.73s in it with 33s on it. it runs fine with them and on the trails too.
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My suggestion is for you to get the book this guy wrote http://www.ericsxj.com/ Eric's website is also really good, with lots of ideas :). You can also get his book on eBay for around $25 or so. I think it's worth $75+ You NEED to get up to speed with A LOT (concerning XJ's) before you start spending $. This book is a really good place to start. It opened up a whole new world for me and gave me TONS of information so I could start making (well informed) decisions on what I wanted and more important, NEEDED, for my XJ. This book will help ya find out what axles you have, their strength's and weaknesses and whether you really need to replace them or just up-grade the shafts.
Take a deep breath, "bone-up' (Read-up) and try to get a better understanding of the XJ and then go from there. Later on you'll be glad you did. Hope this helps...
Tattoo 8)
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Regardless, I'm still upgrading my back axle, its JUNK, it dogs out BAD down the road. I can feel it coming from the back. So right now Im just looking for a good replacement till I do more to my Jeep. And it seems the D-44 is the easiest way to go.
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good luck on a d44 from a bone yard been looking swapped my d35 to an 8.25 got thwe same ratio the only diff is the axle tube is bigger so you need new u bolts no welding involved rolled one out rolled one in best to get one out of a 96 or later its a stronger version
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it dogs out BAD down the road. I can feel it coming from the back.
What do you mean, whats it doing?
Ted
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As Im driving down the road, it bucks from the back. If I go into fourth gear, all it does is buck real bad. So I keep it in 3rd most of the time. my one friend that just upgraded the axle in his Jeep, looked at mine, and told me the reason its doing it, is because my 31's are to heavy for the D-35 and its making the axle weaken.
Also I Just came back from the Junk Yard and I found a Chrysler 8.25 out of a 1999 Jeep Cherokee, Classic? Cant remember, but I do know the Jeep is an auto. The price is $250. I also found a D-44 out of an 80's Cherokee, they want $250 for it also (there asking 250 for all axles, they don't know the difference)
My question is, is $250 to much to spend on a 8.25 or a D-44?
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for an 8.25 way too much d44 on the other hand is a good check elsewere on the forum and youll find a guy withh a pr of 44 for 400 id get the d44 either way good to have around in case.... bigger tires?
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31"s too heavy for a D35 ???
Bucking in 4th gear but not in 3rd ::)
Bucking sounds like the rear brakes may be hanging up, will it drift/coast down a hill in neutral?
If you get an 8.25 either get the same ratio as your front or plan on changing your front gear set.
That 80' D-44 is a full size. Too wide, different lug pattern, different spring location, = not bolt in.
Ted
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The D-44 is on another Jeep Cherokee, I can't remember the model. But it was auto. Like Iv said before, Im still new at learning about the Axles and other Jeep stuff. I was told that the biggest size that a D-35 is able to hold are 30's.
Also its not the brakes holding up, I replaced the back brakes as soon as I got the Jeep, as well as the E-brake cables. I noticed the little buck when I had my 235/60/R15 on. But I didn't think much of it. When I put my 31's on, I noticed a difference in the bucking within a few months. So I changed my, plugs, wires, cap, rotator. TPS. And still the bucking, I have also checked my brakes again thinking, maybe they where hanging. And there not. So the only other thing that I think it could be is my rear is going bad.
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It could be the bearings going bad, they can be replaced. I dont think it has anything to do with the 31"s (size/weight) if it is the bearings and you act soon you can save your ring and pinion.
There are thousands of D35s on the road with millions of miles on them, your running 31"s on a DD with the occational trip off pavement, the 35 will serve you just fine. You will have more ground clearance than a 8.25 and more $ in your pocket.
Ted
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I never thought about the bearings going bad, come to think of it, I never have checked my rear since I bought it. Maybe that is the problem. I will have to check that out.
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Like Iv said before, Im still new at learning about the Axles and other Jeep stuff.
That's why I suggested Eric's book, but you acted like you didn't want to hear it. Are you really looking for help, or just someone who'll agree with ya?
More Questions... What size engine? Auto or Stick? If it's manual, do you get this "dogging", or Bucking, in 1st and 2nd gear too or only high gear?
Differential Gear Ratios are not the same in Automatic and Manual transmissioned Cherokees, so if you get that Rear (from the Auto and you're Stick) you can add another $150, Plus installation, for changing the R/P in the front. The "Type" of Cherokee (Model XJ) that you have was first made in 1984, any part from earlier "Cherokees" won't work! These are called FS (Full Size) Cherokees.
Differentials... Strength wise, if they're both 27 splines, the Dana 35 & Chry 8.25, you'd be wasting your $ on the 8.25, it's actually the weaker (shaft wise) of the twoplus the fact they both use C-Clips, even the Late Model 29 spline shafts. This way when you break an axle, the wheel falls off :o
I agree with Ted, the 31's are NOT your problem. I ran 31's on my 3.55 geared XJ and I lost a bunch of power (acceleration). I installed 4.11 gears and got it back. Now I'm running 33's and it still runs great, but now I've added a ton of stress to my U-Joints and axle shafts. You do realize that you went up 5 (THAT'S FIVE) tire sizes :o :o That's a huge change in Differential gearing! Also, you are now traveling about 11% faster then your speedo says you are, can you spell "SPEEDING TICKET" :'(
Tattoo 8)
Big Point to remember... Everytime you make a change it effects EVERYTHING up, or down, stream.
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i do agree with jack if you get that book you will learn alot with your xj. i haveread one and it surprises me what i didn't know even working in a garage and around cars aslong as i have
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i do agree with jack if you get that book you will learn alot with your xj. i haveread one and it surprises me what i didn't know even working in a garage and around cars aslong as i have
I was not ignoring your comment. I plan to get the book. I was saying I plan to upgrade the back axle later down the road. So why not do it now. I was thinking of doing the 8.25, but read more on the internet, that the D-44 the better choice. And I found one at my local junk yard. That I think I will pick up. Both trannys come from autos. I now understand there are diff gears from the auto/5 speed. My Jeep being a 5 speed, what I am now asking is, what gears should I go with? The 4.11 gears like you have Jack? I understand I will have to change the gears in the front and the back. Im looking for a better Axle so when later down the road I start taking it off road more, it will hold up. Im also looking for better gears for driving. I also know that my speedo is not telling me my real speed.
I'm not a total idiot, Im just asking for advice about the axle I have in my Jeep and one I want to install into my Jeep. And well I WAIT for the book to get to my house. I was asking for help, until then. Also I have the 4.0 Straight 6 Cyl motor, and its 5 speed like I said before. And yes, I do get the bucking in low gears, it just gets worse in higher gears.
Also here is a short video of my gears, there making a clunking noise when I move them back and forth. Not sure if there to do that, so Im asking, sorry the video is a bit dark, my camera suxs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5g3APSoK34
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DAH..... I realize who you are now... Them are some awesome 31's you got there and fancy wheels too ;D
The video will be have to be reviewed by Ted and others, I can't help ya there.
Gear Ratio... How big a tire do ya plan on having? If you're keeping the 31's for a while (I think everyone goes bigger sooner or later) then 3.73 would be a good "all-around" gear. I think the 4.10 (it was actually 4.10 I have installed and not 4.11) would be too Low with 31's as a DD. Another problem you'll have to deal with sometime in the future is the front Dana 30. I believe from '84-'91 there were a lot of XJ's came with the Vacuum Disconnect Dana 30. This means there's a Vacuum Line to leak or break and the passenger side, inner axle shaft is 2 pieces and they might have the smaller U-Joints. There are ways of converting this kind of axle.
For now, I'd find out what is happening and just have that fixed. Maybe just a new Carrier or spider gears. With those 31's, the Dana 35 is good enough and will take ya lots of places. A Dana 44 is the way to go if you plan on going BIG. If you get one cheap enough you can take your time and rebuild it while it's out from under (and add Disk Brakes). If you plan on making this '89 a real Rock Crawling, big tire machine, you might want to reconsider. It's a 2 door and they're not as structurally sound as a four door to be flexing over big rocks. Once you get Eric's book and start reading all the pros and cons with the different years you'll see this year will make a good "mild" XJ and if you plan on building one built like Eric's, and others in the book, you start looking at the Later Models. He also lists "donor" vehicles that you can get Dana 44's from and what needs to be done, if anything, to install one under your XJ.
Tattoo 8)
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I plan to go no bigger then 33's. So you advise the 3.73? I found a set of 3.55 gears and a set of 3.73 gears on ebay. The 3.73 gears are $59.95 with $17.00 shipping. The 3.55 gears are Buy It Now, $39.0 with $16.00 shipping. Is that a good deal for the gears? Also if I don't use my 4x4 can I get away with just replacing the back gears for the time being? Or would I HAVE to replace the front gears at the same time?
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There looks like play in the spider and side gears. I don't think that is a big concern.
Look at the pinion when doing that, there should be no end play or up and down play. To check the carrier bearings, pull the shafts, mark and pull the caps. If the carrier falls out without prying it they are probably shot, get new ones. the pinion bearings should be swaped as well becouse 1. your in there 2. the pinion spins three to four times more than the carrier
I would write more but I'm not sure you want to take on the rebuild of a diff.
As for a D44 vs a 29 spline 8.25 they are so close in strenth it would be like comparing apples to apples.
There is more after market surport for a 44 and you can go lower than 4.56 (limmit of the 8.25)
But the 8.25 has equal length shafts. you would only have to carry one for a spare.
Gear ratio: I like my 4.56s but you can't beat going to the bone yard and getting axles from a 4 cyl (4.10s) swaping them out in a weekend and walk away cheeper than buying gears and bearings. Look for low miles, that 8.25, and a high pinion non disco front.
Ted
I read your new post
You can have non matching gears but dont use 4x4
3.55s would be a waste of time and $. 3.73s are almost going to be a waste as well.
Used gears are OK as long as there good and were made (lapped) as a match set
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Thats what someone on another forum said. He told me to go to the bone yard find a good low mile set of D-35's with 4.10 gears out of a 4 banger. He said he did it, and paid about 150 for both axles. I priced 4.11 gears at the part store and they want $183 for the back. And another $173 for the front.
So my BEST bet would be, to find a set of D-35's from the bone yard that have 4.10 gears? BUT does it matter if there from an auto? My bone yard only has 1 5 speed. and the diff is marked 3.73.
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i don't think that it matters for that. but im soon going to 4.10 in my rears and rebuilding my rears and the disco in the d30s suck i had a 89 with that and was going to replace it with the cable to lock it i think it a lock riht locker for that. it does make a diff b/c u don't have to keep checking on the vac lines to make sure you have 4wd
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i had the factory disco on my 91 w 3.55 gears bought one from eichelbergers w/o the disco same gearing replaced the ball joints and ujoints also the check the ujoints and some later model d30s come w 297 upgrade mine did makes a stronger front if wheeling hard but the new axle rolled in and bolted right up plug the disco lines and no problems
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v511/wordtourafro/DSCN1240.jpg)
Picking that up for $25 bucks. Its a Chryco 8.25 with 3.07 Gears (which is what I have, I belive), it came out of a 1998 Cherokee. It needs brakes, but well I have it off, Im going to do the Disk Brake swap, clean the Axle and paint it with a Rust proof Black paint.
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what year 8.25 makes a difference the post 96 are larger spline stronger axle but the 8.25 is tougher than a d35.
and by the way jack bought the book aloooooot of sh3t i didnt even know. very good investment for an xj owner.lot of secrets in it. thanks for the heads up on it
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Heres the guys ad.
"8.25 out of a 98 Jeep cherokee 29-spline, 3.07 gears, open, needs brakes! 25$"
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that works and a good deal, even pull it yourself is 50$
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The guy is 3 hours away from me. I offered him an extra 25 to meet me half way. And he agreed. So for 50 bucks Im VERY happy. I got my upgraded axle, now I can take my time and rebuild it. With the help of Eric's Book (once I buy it, I no Im waiting till Thursday (pay day)).
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amazon 14.95 new through a-1 books and i know its rebuild yet but if you decide on lockers spend the money and go ECTED it makes a huge difference in street drivability over a traditional lock right/trutrac type locker but as its been said"if you cant drive in the first place a locker aint gonna help"
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I have a question, the 8.25 will bolt right up into my stock location, so Iv been told. But don't I need the drive shaft off a 1998 Cherokee with the 8.25?
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I think the pinion is a little longer. If you are running a lift I think it puts the slip splines back into the "sweet spot". If no lift make sure you have some inward movement on your T-case tail shaft. Don't pry it in and run it there has to have movement both ways.
Ted
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It will be a few months before it gets installed, Im going to clean it, paint it and rebuild it. Not sure what lockers I want, also not sure if I want to go with the 4:10 gears or the 4:11, which would be better? I plan on getting a 4" lift and 33's down the road. Will the 4:10s be better for that?
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first things first is it going in the 89 xj? if yes a sye is not required because they come with a more solid tailshaft on the tcase thats why i dont run one. i have 6.5 total lift and no problems or wobbles even at 75. and the d35 dshaft will bolt right up to 8.25 did this one myself. you will need larger 3 inch ubolts for the swap. the 4.10 would be fine and easier to find boneyard style 4cyl came stock with them. 4" lift will work for 33s but you will rub on hard drop ins (smashed the fender at jeep show this yr on the course when the tire pushed up in, hence the 2 more in) and last but not least BUY THE BOOK.
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Today is Wensday, I get paid tomorrow. Thats why Im picking the Axle up tomorrow. And buying the book tomorrow. :p
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no problem give me a holler if you have questions did most of these swaps on mine already.
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Bought the Axle today, and all I have to say is WOW, its MUCH beefer then the D35. On my way home I stopped at Wal-Mart and bought Rust proof, Primer, Gloss Black, and Gloss Red. The Primer is..........to primer the axle lol. The black is for the axle, the red is for the cover.
I want to do the disk brake conversion on the 8.25, where should I get the disk brakes from? What Jeep axle/make?
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brakes out of a grand cherokee w disc, 8.25 if you can but get everything you can the ebrake hookup is a little tricky though going to save this upgrade till spring.
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IM going to save the disk brake upgrade till spring also. Im going down to my parents house today to install the new axle.